tell you the truth, up to now i really haven't given more than two minutes' thought to this issue (yeah yeah i know, bad fag--eat me, whydontcha).
[i remember when this became the hotbed issue of 2004 and all my gay brethren and sistren were dancing in the streets with jubilation and i was like, "look out, mary--this is gonna bite you in the ass in november in ways you don't even know yet." and damned if i wasn't right--as a by-product of all the righteously-inflamed wingnuts who came out to vote on defense-of-marriage initiatives everywhere, we got us four more years of the idiot bush (and please don't think i don't know that a kerry administration would've been a hell of a completely different kind--but after four years of bush i was willing to roll the dice). and now, in another critical election year, here comes gay marriage again! but i digress.]
as a result of my indifference, i really haven't turned my critical faculties to the examination of this issue like i should have--my superficial take on the whole gay marriage thing has always been: this is gonna open up an ugly can of worms we really don't need right now; much smarter to work for civil unions (which seems a much easier sell), and to push for legislation forcing recognition of such civil unions in the same way as marriage is recognized.
and i pretty much thought that way up until today--until dan savage's counter to some moron on anderson cooper's show made me realize i should look at the whole thing more closely.
anyway, watch for yourself and see what you think:
[update: oh, fuck red lasso--as soon as they "have a spot for me" they'll gimme a password and allow me to link to their goddam precious videos; in the meantime, go to joe.my.god if you wanna see what dan had to say--search for "Cooper, Savage, Idiot Spar On Marriage"--it's the only video i've watched on the issue in the last two days that gave me anything to think about.
but for the lazy, here's a quick synopsis: in response to the christianist's contention that in every country in which gay marriage has been allowed traditional marriage has correspondingly suffered a hit, dan said, in effect, "no, it's the insidious compromise of civil unions that has cheapened traditional marriage, because if you offer it to the gays you have to offer it to the straights as well--and if they can get all the benefits of marriage without the responsibilities, why shouldn't they?"
it's a good point, and one for which i don't have a ready answer.]
and yeah, i know--even though it's new to me, the rest of you were debating the merits of this position back in 2005 and i'm a clueless idiot. again, eat me.
update 2: jesus, i was cranky last night.
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11 comments:
i don't know..
the idea of marriage has ALWAYS turned me off..
but then again, i am a hopeless idiot romantic..
honestly, i couldn't give a rat's ass about whether or not we got the same fuckin' benefits as straight people get when they get hitched..
But, if my family loves ya, then that seals the fuckin' deal..
yhm:
1. that's easy to say because you haven't watched his family swoop in while he's sick, push you out, make decisions about his future you should make and take your house and property away from you because it's not in both your names--all because you're not "married."
2. you're gonna be the subject of a blogpost in the next day or two--brace yourself.
oh crap..
I wanted to ask a question of guttermorality that I have been pondering. Everyone has focused upon how gay marriage validates gay relationships. But, I really think that gay marriage may also change gay relationships.
Up to now, there has been an enormous variety of gay unions. Some are monogamous and mimic the straight marriage model.
Most that I know are non monogamous and fall somewhere between living together and marriage.
I suggest that gay marriage may make gay relationships less varied and less able to respond to the varying needs that gays and lesbians have.
Being gay used to be the life of an outsider in society. As society accepts gays, that is no longer true. Something is lost in a way for many. Something I very much miss.
the older i get, noblesavage, the more i'm struck by the duality--the double-edge-swordedness--of life. here we are, having fought so hard for equality and mainstream acceptance, and now that it's happening, the ghetto mentality (as well as the ghetto itself) that was so long our refuge and our prison is evaporating before our eyes. gay bars and businesses are closing left and right, and the new generation doesn't seem to need or appreciate either the crutch or the comfort that our little community has always offered its members.
we wanted it, and--for better and for worse--we're getting it. and in another generation, most of what you and i know and love/hate about gay life will be nothing but quaint history.
oh, and yhm: don't worry, i'll be gentle.
Well, guttermorality, let me just expound for a minute on your theme.
I came from a very conservative, very conventional background.
Being gay, coming out as gay, and living a gay life (and it has been very gay) exposed me to a world I never knew existed: I became an outsider in a way I never could have or would have otherwise.
I was far too privileged and far too conventional to every have otherwise been not a part of the mainstream.
I was never going to get a face tattoo or get all strung out on heroin or become a leftist militant politico. I'm still not that kinda guy.
But it has been my privilege for a geeky now middle-aged white guy to seek the world from such a radically different and much more interesting perspective.
It has enriched and fulfilled my life more than I could have every imagined or hoped.
Being gay for me was a path to a truly interesting and fruitful life and it was directly related to being an outsider and the feelings of guilt, rejection, shame, and societal disapprobation I experienced then and still feel inside me now in different ways.
What I experienced as a young boy, as an adolescent, in college, and then coming out shortly thereafter was typical of men my age.
It is also radically different from what so many young boys, adolescents, and young gay men experience now (are you listening Byzantine Boy?).
So, to the extent other gays want and achieve equality, I am happy for them.
I do not want equality. I do not want an ordinary life equal to so many of the straight people I know.
Being gay has given me an extraordinary life.
Maybe that opportunity for younger gays will survive equality and gay marriage and all the rest.
I hope it does. But if it does not, I simply suggest they are getting the poorer end of the bargain.
But that doesn't mean you have to stop having an extraordinary life, NobleSavage.
Not in the least.
I realize this is one of the things to which I can't particularly relate--gay clubs, for me, were safe havens from the lecherous men who hung out in the 'straight' clubs on South Beach (and in Ft. Lauderdale). They were absolute dens of debaucherous, delicious fun that just wasn't had at other clubs, and the added bonus was that the guys simply weren't going to hit on my girlfriends and myself. But that's the extent of it.
To some degree I had to live vicariously through my gay friends to get the 'real' lowdown on the gay lifestyle (nightlife in particular). The appeal was definitely heightened with those stories, and yes, sometimes I did find myself wishing I were a gay man (oh, don't start. I love penis just as much as any gay man does).
I find it very interesting/intriguing that you don't want the change--that you don't want to be 'mainstream'. And, again, I don't think you need to change. The entire gay society won't change, of this I am pretty confident.
And I'm sorry that you feel the way you do. Makes me a bit sad that you feel, in my words, almost like you're losing part of your identity. Don't get me wrong--I don't 'feel sorry' for you. I'm trying to figure out what I could equate what you're feeling to something in my lifetime that's been a significant change, but I just can't. There hasn't been much change in the heterosexual world, least of all mine (well, except for the loss of my husband, which made me less mainstream, if anything).
And I really am sorry.
Thanks Judi for your kind words.
Believe me when I say I'm probably not going to go mainstream anytime soon. It is too much fun and too interesting being away from the homogenized/suburbanized/bland existence that I see so many of my straight comrades indulging in.
Kudos for you for seeking something more.
What I am saying is that I became an outsider unwillingly and came out into a somewhat dark, smelly, gloriously fun and lustful world that was gay life way back when.
I did this because I was presented with a stark choice: either I had a life in the closet with all of the values I cared about, or a dank gay life where I could actually be myself.
If I were 18 now, I don't think I would have had the experiences and exposure and all the challenges that I had.
In retrospect, these were wonderful opportunities.
So now that I am, by choice, an outsider and rejecting the mainstream, homogenized, suburban life, I find that I have much more in common with straight folks who hold the same values than a lot of the younger gay guys (are you reading Byzantine Boy?) who basically want to have a gay marriage, children, and white picket fence.
Perhaps I am being too harsh on what has become the American way.
But, as I speak from my own experiences, all I can say is that being gay liberated me from societal conformity across the board...and this liberation was enormously empowering to me and so many men of my generation. I never would have imagined then, how grateful I am now for choosing the outsider's life -- however painful and unwilling that choice was.
The cost of assimilation is so many younger gays will not have that experience.
Unless they are already predisposed to question the society and challenge the mainstream culture, being gay will just be another homogenized variation.
noblesavage: even though i came to the party late and never joined it fully, i can still understand how someone who made the most of his gay-communal experience--as did you--would feel about the potential loss of this world.
among other things, i remember your (and others') vivid descriptions of finally understanding the magic of male bonding--denied you in the straight world--the first time you danced shirtless all night long surrounded by guys just like you. or just the simple pleasure of living, shopping and/or working in a "gay area" that we've all taken for granted.
what i guess i'm sayin is, i'm not necessarily crazy about the way a lot of things are going either--but we're dinosaurs, i'm afraid.
judi: it would appear you get it much more than i do ;)
Mike: Phblt, whatever. Did you ever wonder why it is that I 'fit in' so well over here (even if I do give The Savage One a really hard time)?
Anyway, new post up at my blog.
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